NINAU NO JOANNE LAWS IA JOAN JONAS MA KE KAHI O VAI HUI TOGETHER 2024.
Joanne Laws: Malia paha hiki iaʻu ke nīnau iā ʻoe, ʻo ka mea mua, e pili ana i ka ulu ʻana ma New York i nā makahiki 1930 a me 40. Manaʻo wau he kūlanakauhale ʻokoʻa loa ia i ko mākou ʻike i kēia manawa?
Joan Jonas: ʻAe, he kūlanakauhale nani loa ia. ʻAʻole i loaʻa kēlā mau hale aniani weliweli. Aloha au iā New York e ulu ana ma laila. Noho mākou ma ka ʻaoʻao Hikina Uka kokoke i ka muliwai Hikina. Hoʻomanaʻo wau i ka lohe ʻana i nā waʻa huki ma ka muliwai i ka pō, aʻu i aloha ai. Ua hele au i ka Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art i koʻu wā kamaliʻi, a hoʻomanaʻo wau makemake ia.
JL: Ua wehewehe mua ʻoe i ka loaʻa ʻana o kahi lua i loko o ke kūlanakauhale, kēlā me kēia kūlanakauhale, ʻo ia ʻo New York, London, Berlin, kahi e hiki ai ke hana a me nā neʻe ma lalo o ka radar.
JJ: ʻAe, kapa au iā lākou he lua ma nā kūlanakauhale. Ua noho au ma New York, akā ʻo Berlin kahi i loaʻa ai iaʻu kēlā manaʻo no ka mea he noho koʻu ma Berlin i nā makahiki 80 mua. A ua piha ʻo Berlin i nā lua, me nā kaha pōkā ma nā paia. Hana ʻia nā hana a me nā hanana i kēia mau kūlana no ka mea he mau wahi hoihoi lākou i waho. Aia kekahi pūʻulu o nā mea pena ʻōpio i kapa ʻia ʻo Bureau Berlin, nāna i ʻimi i nā wahi hoihoi. A ua hana au pēlā ma New York, pū kekahi. Ua hana nā kānaka a pau.
JL: Hiki iā ʻoe ke kaʻana like me mākou i kekahi o kou mau hoʻomanaʻo ʻana i ke kiʻi kiʻi o ke kaona o New York i kēia manawa, pili paha i ka lewa, he manaʻo nui ia no nā mea pena a pau?
JJ: ʻAe, i ka 60s a me ka 70s mua, he mea maʻalahi loa ka noho ʻana ma New York a hana i ka hana. I kēia manawa ua lilo ia i mea hiki ʻole, no ka poʻe pena kiʻi ʻōpio, he mea ʻino loa. Akā hiki iā ʻoe ke hele i waho ma ke alanui e hana i ka hana. No ka ʻāpana hoʻokahi, ua lawe au i koʻu hoaaloha ʻo Pat Steir, he mea pena kiʻi, a lawe mākou i kaʻu mau mea pono o nā paipu, cones, a me nā hoops ma nā alanui o Wall Street i ka pō, ʻaʻohe mea i nīnau mai iā mākou. I kēia manawa, ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hana i kēlā me ka loaʻa ʻole o ka ʻae; ʻAʻole like ka manaʻo o ke kūʻokoʻa. Akā iaʻu, ʻo ke komo ʻana i kekahi ʻano moʻomeheu ma New York he mea nui. A hele i ka Philharmonic - ʻo wau hoʻi, nā mele kahiko a me ka opera - me koʻu makuahine, a ma hope aku, nā mele o kēia manawa, i ka makahiki 70; kanaka e like me Philip Glass, Steve Reich, Terry Riley, a me na mea e ae. Hele kekahi e lohe i ke mele ola i nā manawa a pau. ʻO ke anaina he hui o nā mea pena o nā ʻano like ʻole; nā haku mele, nā mea pena kiʻi, a ua hele mākou a pau i ka hana a kekahi. He hopena nui ko ka haku mele ʻo La Monte Young iaʻu.
JL: Ke manaʻoʻiʻo nei au ʻo kekahi o kāu hana mua e pili ana iā ʻoe ke nānā i ke aniani a ʻakaʻaka. Hiki iaʻu ke nīnau e pili ana i nā aniani i mea kōkua i kāu hana?
JJ: Ua hoʻomaka wau e hoihoi a hoʻoikaika ʻia e nā aniani ma ka heluhelu ʻana iā [Jorge Luis] Borges. ʻO kāna puke, Labyrinths (1962) ua unuhi ʻia a puni ia manawa, a hāʻawi ʻia iaʻu. Ua makemake koke au i nā moʻolelo. Lawe au i nā kuhikuhi a pau e pili ana i nā aniani mai loko mai o kēlā puke, kope iā lākou, hoʻopaʻanaʻau iā lākou, a laila hana wau i kahi hana i ke kapa aniani. Ua hoihoi mai nā aniani iaʻu no ka mea ua hoʻololi lākou i ka hakahaka; hōʻike lākou i nā mea ʻē aʻe a pau. Ua kapa ʻo Borges iā lākou he pohihihi a hoʻoweliweli - manaʻoʻiʻo ʻo ia i ka hoʻonui ʻole ʻana o ka lewa. Ma nā hana mua, aia ma kahi o 17 poʻe e lawe ana i nā aniani nui a kaumaha. Hōʻike lākou i ka lehulehu, a ʻike ka poʻe iā lākou iho. Ua hana wau i ʻumi o nā hana aniani ma MoMA, a hele au e ʻike iā lākou āpau. I kekahi manawa, ke ʻike ʻoe i kāu hana ponoʻī ma hope aku, he mea kupanaha ka manaʻo ua loaʻa iā ʻoe ka ikaika e hele ai i kēlā!
JL: ʻO kāu kiʻiʻoniʻoni mua he ʻeleʻele a keʻokeʻo, kani ʻole, 16 mm kiʻiʻoniʻoni mai ka makahiki 1968 i kapa ʻia makani. Hiki paha iā ʻoe ke kaʻana like me mākou i ka hoʻopiʻi a me nā palena o 16mm no ʻoe ma ke ʻano he mea pena?
JJ: Ma mua o koʻu hiki ʻana mai i ʻaneʻi i ka makahiki 80, hoihoi au i ke kiʻiʻoniʻoni. Akā ʻaʻole au i hele i ke kula e aʻo i ke kiʻiʻoniʻoni. I koʻu hele ʻana i ke kulanui, ke aʻo nei au i ke kiʻi kiʻi, e hana ana i ka pālolo mai ke kiʻi. ʻAʻohe a lākou papa kiʻiʻoniʻoni i kēlā manawa. Ua hoʻomaka wau e aʻo i ke kiʻiʻoniʻoni ma ka hele wale ʻana i nā kiʻiʻoniʻoni. Aia ka Anthology Film Archives ma koʻu kaiāulu ma SoHo - ua hāʻawi nui ʻo Jonas Mekas iā mākou ma ka loaʻa ʻana o kēia mau waihona - no laila, hele au e ʻike i kēlā mau mea a pau. Ua hana au i ʻelua kiʻi ʻoniʻoni 16mm: makani (1968) a me ka Songdelay (1973), akā pono au e hana mau me ka poʻe hana kiʻiʻoniʻoni no ka mea, ʻo ka pahupaʻi kiʻiʻoniʻoni he ʻano kikoʻī a paʻakikī. makani ua hoʻokumu ʻia ma kahi ʻāpana o loko a mākou i lawe ai i waho. Ua kapa ʻia makani no ka mea, ʻo ia ka lā anuanu o ka makahiki, a paʻi ka makani. A mai ia manawa mai, lilo ka makani i kekahi o koʻu mau hoa hana. No laila, ke hele au i Kanada i ke kauwela, a i ka wā e pa mai ai ka makani, wikiwiki wau i waho me koʻu mau lole a me nā mea a pau, a hele pū kaʻu ʻīlio me aʻu.
JL: I ka makahiki 1970, ua huakaʻi ʻoe i Iapana me kou hoa, ka mea pena ʻo Richard Serra, a ma laila ʻoe i kūʻai ai i Sony Portapak, kahi ʻōnaehana hoʻopaʻa wikiō hoʻopaʻa ʻana i ka pila e hiki ke lawe a hoʻohana ʻia e ke kanaka hoʻokahi. Manaʻo wau ua hāʻawi kēia i kahi ʻano hou a me ka pae o ke kūʻokoʻa i kāu hana kiʻiʻoniʻoni?
JJ: Ua makemake au ia, a pela no na mea a pau i hana me ka wikiō. Ua inaina nā mea hana kiʻiʻoniʻoni no ka maikaʻi o ka wikiō. He ʻeleʻele a keʻokeʻo a ʻeleʻele loa a ʻaʻole maopopo. ʻAʻole like ia me ke kiʻiʻoniʻoni, akā makemake mākou a pau. Manaʻo wau ʻo ka mea nui loa e pili ana i ka Portapak, ʻo ia ka hiki ke noho i kahi mea pena kiʻi i loko o kā lākou studio me ke kāmela a nānā i nā mea a lākou e hana nei ma ka monitor a i ʻole ka projection. He radical a kipi kēlā. ʻOiaʻiʻo, hiki i nā mea pena ke ʻike iā lākou iho i kā lākou hana. A ʻo ia ke kumu o kaʻu hana mua.
JL: Ma ka waena o nā makahiki 70, me ka ʻaʻahu ʻana i ka pēpē e like me ka mask, hana ʻoe ma ke ʻano Organic Honey, āu i wehewehe ai he "electronic, erotic seductress." In ʻO Organic Honey's Visual Telepathy mai 1972, ua ʻike ʻia kāu kiʻi ʻāpana ponoʻī ma ka pale. I ka noʻonoʻo ʻana, pehea ʻoe e kau ai i kāu alter ego, Organic Honey i loko o kāu hana e ulu nei?
JJ: No ka mea ʻo ia kaʻu ʻāpana wikiō mua, ʻo ia kekahi o nā hana nui loa. Ua hoʻomaka wau e hoʻokomo i nā ʻōwili kūpaʻa i loko o kekahi o nā hana wikiō. He hana wikiō autonomous kēlā, akā hoʻokomo wau i ka hana. ʻAʻole wau he loea, no laila ʻaʻole wau e heluhelu ana i ka manaʻo; aia ma ka ʻenehana ia manawa, a ma nā wahi a kekahi o mākou e hele nei. ʻO ia hoʻi ka manawa o ka neʻe ʻana o nā wahine, no laila ua hoʻokumu ʻia ʻo Organic Honey i ka manaʻo e nīnau i ke ʻano o ke kiʻi wahine. Ua ʻaʻahu au i nā ʻaʻahu i loaʻa iaʻu ma nā mākeke puaʻa, a me nā maka. Ua hoʻohuli ʻia au e ka hale kiʻiʻoniʻoni Noh, a ke nānā nei au i nā kikokikona mai nā pāʻani Noh, no ka mea, he mea hoʻoikaika mau ia iaʻu.
JL: Pono mākou e haʻi aku ua noho ʻoe ma Dublin i ka makahiki 1994, i kou hoʻomākaukau ʻana no kāu hoʻomanaʻo mua ma ka Hale Hōʻikeʻike ʻo Stedelijk ma Amsterdam. ʻOiai ʻoe ma ʻaneʻi, me he mea lā ua pili loa ʻoe i ke ʻano moʻokalaleo Irish?
JJ: ʻAe, e ʻae mai iaʻu e ʻōlelo wale i kekahi mea e pili ana iā ʻIlelani. No ka manawa lōʻihi i kēia manawa, ua hoihoi au i ka moʻolelo mele a me ka ʻikepili Irish. No ka mea he ʻāpana Irish wau - kala wau e haʻi aku! He mau haneli tausani o mākou i hoʻopuehu ʻia ma nā wahi a pau. ʻO Huguenot koʻu inoa [ʻohana], a aia ka inoa o koʻu kupuna wahine ma ka hale kupapaʻu ʻo Huguenot [ma Dublin]. ʻAʻohe manaʻo, akā noʻu he pilina. A ua huki mau au i nā kumuhana Irish a me nā palapala ʻIlelani. ʻO James Joyce, ʻoiaʻiʻo, he mana nui. ʻO ka ʻoiaʻiʻo he moʻolelo kona i loko o kāna mau moʻolelo; ʻo ia ka mea i hoʻoikaika nui iaʻu e hoʻokomo i ka moʻolelo i loko o kaʻu hana. Ua hoʻolauna mai ʻo Rudi Fuchs [ke alakaʻi o ka Hale Hōʻikeʻike ʻo Stedelijk i ia manawa] i ka hana a Seamus Heaney, no laila ua hoʻokumu wau i kahi ʻāpana ma kāna mele, Sweeney Astray. Ua hele mai au i ʻaneʻi e hana i kēlā, a ua hele au i ka Pae Aina a paʻi kiʻi i kēlā mau pā pōhaku nani.
JL: ʻIke au i kou pilina me ka hoʻohewa noʻeau i nā makahiki. He paionia kāu hana a manaʻo wau ua paʻakikī ka poʻe hoʻohewa e ʻimi i nā huaʻōlelo e kākau ai e pili ana. ʻO ia kahi mea āu i manaʻo nui ai ma ke ʻano he mea pena?
JJ: ʻAe, e ʻōlelo mua wau, ʻino wau ʻaʻole lākou i kākau hou noʻu! A he oiaio ia; ʻAʻole lākou i ʻike pehea e kākau ai i kaʻu mea i hana ai. ʻO Jonas Mekas ka mea mua, he mea hana kiʻiʻoniʻoni, nāna i hoʻomaopopo i kaʻu e hoʻāʻo nei e hana. Ua ʻike ʻo ia i kaʻu mau wikiō wikiō mua, nā Organic Honey, a kākau ʻo ia e pili ana i ia mea ma ka nūpepa. Noʻu, he mea koʻikoʻi kēlā no ka mea e ʻōlelo ana nā mea a pau, "ʻAʻole hiki iaʻu ke ʻike i kāu hana." ʻAʻole lākou i ʻike pehea e hoʻokokoke aku ai. ʻAʻohe aʻu kamaʻilio ʻana, no laila ʻaʻole wau i kamaʻilio me lākou no ka mea ʻaʻole wau he loea.
JL: Ma waena o kāu mau hana a me nā hoʻonohonoho ʻana, aia kahi manaʻo e nānā hou a hoʻoponopono hou, a ʻoi aku ka kikoʻī e hoʻihoʻi a hoʻōla hou i kekahi o kāu mau hana mua. Makemake au e ʻike pehea i hiki ai iā ʻoe ke kūkulu a mālama i kēia kamaʻilio ma waena o nā hana i hala a me kēia manawa?
JJ: ʻO koʻu manaʻo, ʻaʻole ia he ala hou. Akā ʻo ka hui Organic Honey o nā wikiō - ʻaʻole au e hana hou i kēlā mau manawa. Aia kekahi mau ʻāpana aʻu e hoʻopā ʻole ai. ʻO kahi hiʻohiʻona paʻa loa he moʻolelo hou e pili ana i ke kai, ma muli o kahi puke i kapa ʻia Ma lalo o ka Glacier na Halldór Laxness, he mea kākau maikaʻi ʻo Icelandic. ʻOiaʻiʻo, pono wau e kau i kaʻu hana i kēia manawa, akā ua kākau ʻo ia i kēlā puke i ka makahiki 60. ʻO ka mea mua āu e noʻonoʻo ai, ʻo ka hehee ʻana o nā glaciers i kēia manawa. No laila, pono wau e noʻonoʻo i kēlā. Ua lilo ka ʻāpana e pili ana i ka hopena kaiaola, a ua hoʻokomo wau i nā kiʻi mai Nā hoʻoluhi (1972), i paʻi kiʻi ʻia i loko o kahi wai ʻauʻau, me nā wahine ʻōpio (ʻo wau pū kekahi) e ʻauʻau ana me ka ʻōlohelohe a i ʻole nā ʻaʻahu moe keʻokeʻo. Makemake au e hōʻike ua heheʻe nā mea a pau a e noho ana kākou a pau ma lalo o ka wai. He pilikia nui ka wai.
JL: Pehea kou manaʻo i ka wā i kau ai ʻo MoMA i kāu retrospective ma mua o kēia makahiki, 'Aloha pō. Aloha kakahiaka'? He manawa noʻonoʻo, nostalgic, lanakila?
JJ: ʻAʻole nostalgic - ʻoluʻolu - ʻaʻole wau makemake i kahi nostalgia! ʻAʻole, hauʻoli loa wau i ia mea. Ua hana au i ka retrospectives ma ka Tate a ma Munich a me Pokukala, akā he ʻokoʻa loa ka hana ʻana ma koʻu ʻāina hānau. Hele mai nā curators i koʻu loft i kēlā me kēia pule no ʻelua makahiki, e hana wale ana i kā lākou noiʻi ponoʻī. Ua hiki iā lākou ke hoʻokomo i nā mea hou aku i loko, e hoʻonui ai i ka waiwai. Ma muli o ke ʻano o ka hana ʻana o kaʻu hana, ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻike i kēia mau hoʻonohonoho ke ʻole lākou i hoʻonohonoho ʻia. No laila, noʻu, he mea nui loa ka ʻike ʻana o ka poʻe i kaʻu hana e like me ka mea e pono ai, ma New York, kahi aʻu i hele mai ai.
JL: Makemake au e nīnau i nā ʻōlelo aʻoaʻo āu e hāʻawi ai i nā mea hana kiʻi ʻōpio - a i ʻole, nā mea pena kiʻi o kēlā me kēia pae ʻoihana - e pili ana i ka hoʻomau ʻana, i loko o nā pilikia he nui a mākou e kū nei i ke ola.
JJ: ʻAe, hoʻokahi mea aʻu e ʻōlelo ai, pono ʻoe e aloha i kāu hana, no ka mea, ʻaʻole ʻoe e ʻike ʻia. ʻAʻole wau e ʻōlelo i kēlā, akā pono ʻoe e aloha iā ia. A inā ʻike ʻia ʻoe, pono ʻoe e hoʻomau i ke aloha i kāu hana, no ka mea he hana paʻakikī ke hoʻomau i ka hele ʻana i nā wā ʻino; aia nā piʻi a me lalo, ʻoiaʻiʻo. Akā, manaʻo wau ʻo ke kumu nui o kāu hana ʻana no ka mea ua huki ʻia ʻoe iā ia a ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke pale aku, ʻike ʻoe.
Nīnau Audience: Hiki iā ʻoe ke kamaʻilio e pili ana i ka hoʻololi ʻana ma waena o ke kaha kiʻi a me ka hana kiʻiʻoniʻoni a me ka hana kiʻiʻoniʻoni?
JJ: ʻAe, ʻo ke kaha kiʻi kekahi ʻano o kaʻu hana mai kinohi mai. ʻO ia kaʻu mea i lawe mai ai mai ke aʻo ʻana i ke kālai kiʻi a me ka mōʻaukala noʻeau. Noʻu, he hana ke kaha kiʻi; Ke aʻo mau nei au i ke kaha kiʻi a me ka hoʻomaʻamaʻa ʻana i ke kaha kiʻi. A no laila, hana au i nā kaha kiʻi no kēlā me kēia o kaʻu mau hana e pili ana i ka ʻike, me ka ʻenehana, e like me ke kaha kiʻi wikiō a pēlā aku. ʻO ke kaha kiʻi kekahi ʻāpana o kaʻu ʻōlelo kumu. He mau kaukani kiʻi aʻu i mālama ai, i hūnā ʻia, a hōʻike wale ʻia ma nā hana. Akā, hana au i nā kaha kiʻi kūʻokoʻa. Hoʻopili wau i kekahi mau kumuhana, e like me nā ʻīlio.
Nīnau Audience: Hana nui ʻoe me nā huaʻōlelo a me nā moʻolelo, akā hana pū ʻoe me ka hana, ke kaha kiʻi, a me ke kino. Hiki iā ʻoe ke kamaʻilio me mākou e pili ana i kēia haʻalulu?
JJ: He mea nui wale nā huaʻōlelo iaʻu ke hoʻohana au, akā, manaʻo wau ʻaʻole pono. Me he mea lā e kahe wale ana, ʻike ʻoe, mai kekahi ʻano a i kekahi. Ua nui ka poema. Ke ʻōlelo wau i ka poem, ʻo wau ke ʻano o ka hoʻonohonoho ʻana o nā mele. Wahi a kekahi, he telegarapa ka poem; he ala pōkole o ka ʻōlelo ʻana i kekahi mea paʻakikī a nani paha. ʻIke wau he kahe ia ma mua o ka ʻāʻī ma waena o kēlā mau mea ʻelua. Ua hoʻomaka wau me ka ʻōlelo ʻole i kaʻu hana mua, a laila komo mālie lākou.
JL: Makemake au e mahalo nui iā ʻoe no kou hele ʻana mai e kamaʻilio pū me mākou ma ke ʻano ʻoiaʻiʻo a hoʻoikaika e pili ana i kāu hana.
JJ: Mahalo iā ʻoe no kou loaʻa ʻana mai iaʻu. Hauʻoli nui wau i koʻu noho ʻana ma ʻaneʻi a mahalo iā ʻoe. Makemake au e noho ma ʻIlelani.
ʻO Joanne Laws ka luna hoʻoponopono o ka Pepa Nūhou ʻo Art Visual.
visualartissireland.com
He paionia ʻo Joan Jonas no ka hoʻokani a me ke kiʻi wikiō ʻo ia ka mea koʻikoʻi i ka neʻe kiʻi hana hana o New York i nā makahiki 1960. Ua hana a hōʻike nui ʻo Joan ma ka honua holoʻokoʻa. Ua hōʻike ʻia kāna moʻolelo hope, ʻo 'Joan Jonas: Good Night Good Morning' ma MoMA mai 17 Malaki a 6 Iulai 2024.
moma.org
